Is Cash Dead? The Future of Cash Interview John Bryant

Is Cash Dead? Taking Its Pulse in 2024

An interview with old friend and workmate John Bryant. Back when I lived in Minnesota. He has seen a lot over the years and has “survived” much like me (Craig). Big wins and big losses. It’s like winning your first deal with Walmart and two years later you realize you didn’t make much money and “survived Walmart”. Every one does it at least once.

Anyway, I have my bias so instead of writing my opinions and best guesses it seems much more educational to get a different viewpoint on cash, and from someone who spends a good chunk of the time on cash. A viewpoint from Europe and Dimana with SelfPay is included as well. So without further ado I give you,

John Bryant

John Bryant

Deal Maker • Business Development Generalist. Driving growth by forging partnerships. ATMs, Kiosks, iOT in Casino Gaming, Retail, Manufacturing. Overcoming obstacles, and bringing deals to fruition. Prior Lake, MN

Background includes strategic organizational consulting, product development and operational execution; growing and directing both private and publicly traded financial technology companies. 30 year career driving growth through corporate finance and top line revenue growth mergers and acquisitions. A focused knowledge of payments & technology trends in retail, commercial and tribal casino gaming. Incubation of start up technology businesses. Turnaround and capital funding services.

How is the ATM industry in the US faring these days John. Who are the big players?

The industry, as a whole, has been in a “status quo” mode meaning the market is mature. OEMs focus on maintaining strong relationships with existing customers and leveraging those relationships to secure repeat business. Long term loyalty with OEMs such as Triton, Genmega and Hyosung, that are adept at adapting their hardware designs to meet the specific needs of emerging markets IMHO still very strong.

McDonald’s Cash Kiosk in MSP airport and latest McD upgrade circa 2024. Not only McDonalds but rumor is Burger King is looking hard at cash.

Retail ATMs needing EPP, OS and ADA adjustments and upgrades remain the big points of service and revenue for the ISO and VAR.

I’ve worked with several Fintech firms that are deep into continuously developing products to

stay ahead of the latest demands for security and regulatory compliance.

I’m currently assisting one Vegas gaming related firm on external security boards with geolocation tech that alert when there is tampering and theft.

While the manufacturers and their software partners continue to seek the next “killer app” to potentially drive more wholesale ATM replacement (recycling, ITMs, etc…) the vast majority of users simply want fast access to cash.

Cardtronics, Payment Alliance International, Cord Financial, and Paramount Management Group lead the pack

How much market share do the ISOs hold these days in your best guess

50% are ISO owned and 50% are bank-owned

How much market share do the ISOs hold these days in your best guess

50%are ISO owned and 50% are bank-owned

Have the banks been investing in tech and if so what? Digital signage?

There has been increased branch automation with Interactive Teller Machines (ITM) extending banking hours and improving efficiencies by handling more complex transactions. Communication at the ITM between the bank customers via video conferencing direct to a main bank teller. Hyosung and Atleos machines have proven to be very robust with note acceptors and recyclers handling more complex transactions like account opening. Digital signage is not within my sphere, but I see touch points and what appear to be strategies for engagement and marketing to customers entering my local Wings Credit Union.

There was a big rise in Bitcoin ATMs a few years back. Any progress there?

I’m familiar with Bitcoin Depot as friends and former associates.

Cash recycler from Crane?

Bitcoin Depot is deploying mostly Genmega Universal Kiosks and due to acquisition of Cole Kepro assets they did some buyout of Bitcoin of America and CoinCloud hardware. Bitcoin Depot has over 10k machines in grocery retail and convenience stores. They remain in growth mode and expect to deploy another several hundred machines before the end of Q4/24. Other companies have unfortunately had struggles with AML issues and other regulatory compliance issues and Bitcoin Depot is looking to acquire the majority of these failed projects.

Any comment on Asia, South America, Middle East and Europe?

What I know from contract manufacturing in Taiwan and business travels to the other continents/countries is that’s it’s a mixed landscape out there. Digital payment methods (e.g., mobile wallets, credit/debit cards) are increasingly popular, in China, South Korea, and Japan influenced by economies, technology infrastructure, and government policies.

I do now that in the International markets where “tap & go” has been adopted, eliminating the need for PIN or signature credit under $100, the usage of cash at bistros, cafes, and the espresso house is prevalent. It’s now mostly debit & credit. The broad adoption of NFC means that the younger generation don’t even carry cards anymore – it’s all done on their phones. The use of cash and ATMs varies widely across Asia, South America, the Middle East, and Europe, impacted by economic, cultural, and technological factors. Cash will remain dominant in areas with limited digital infrastructure and ATM usage will continue to decline in those tech-savvy areas due with widespread digital infrastructure.

In some areas, inflation and economic instability make cash more practical for daily transactions.

Gulf countries like the UAE and Saudi Arabia are pushing for cashless economies with advanced banking and digital payment infrastructure, but in contrast, cash is still crucial in less affluent or rural areas.

For many reasons, too large to guess on, including size and complexity, the U.S. is a decade behind the rest of the world. Magnetic stripe fallback is still ubiquitous. As more NFC is adopted here in the US, the use of ATMs and cash will continue to fall, although I don’t see an “all digital” future here in the US anytime soon.

What/where does cash get used for?

The short answer is purchases under $60 (bars & coffee shops), gifts and personal usage. As a store of value ($100 bills mostly).

Many people still prefer or rely on cash for a variety of reasons.

Do you pay for services like haircuts, lawn mowing, housecleaning with digital payment methods? Not likely. Many cash users choose simplicity and many elderly may prefer not to participate in the digital world.

Think about the Crowdstrike debacle. What if there was a larger system failure of crashed networks?

Contactless payments surged hard during the pandemic, further pushing the trend of carrying less or no cash, but it obviously remains a crucial component of everyday life for the unbanked and people in rural areas that need more accessibility.

Editor Note: Generally I always use cash with small business to escape the Visa/MC equation [see who came out ahead in last legislation]. Notably if I am in a chain restaurant I am more likely to use a standard credit card.

Alimony and DMV seem to be last bastions of cash. Venmo and others seem to be eating into the under/non banked segment cash always points at. Comments?

Venmo and other digital wallets do provide some solutions for the unbanked and underbanked populations, but they don’t fully solve the problem. Here’s a breakdown of how they impact these groups:

Venmo and similar services can be more accessible if individuals have smartphones and internet access. They offer a way to receive, hold, and transfer funds without a traditional bank account, which can be highly beneficial.

Not everyone in the unbanked population has consistent access to smartphones or reliable internet, limiting their usability.

I use Cash App for cash back and loyalty discounts. Many of these apps will mitigate the challenges faced by the unbanked and underbanked, but they don’t entirely solve financial access problems.

Any prognosis on marijuana vending and cash?

MJ is still primarily an “all cash” business from seed to sale. I worked some with Fintech/ATM groups that needed approved cannabis-friendly bank sponsorship agreements that took time in discovery and negotiations. They also needed $100M + in vault cash agreements to deploy ATMs that needed to be serviced by cash in transit armored cars. One particular California-based Fintech found workarounds by developing POS hardware on a Linux-based platform with open APIs. They are coding the POS transaction as an ATM transaction which is essentially illegal, but overall overlooked by the Networks. The networks often turn the other cheek on these types of vice transactions as they are highly profitable and maybe not as risky as previously predicted. MasterCard is however announcing and attempting to curtail some activity by shutting down many of the reverse ATM products i

What about vending, food dispense?

Vending machines and food dispensing systems have evolved, adapting to modern payment methods.

Most modern vending machines accept card payments, particularly contactless transactions.

Systems like Apple Pay, Google Wallet, and Samsung Pay are increasingly supported at vending machines.

Scanning a QR code to make a payment via a mobile app is on the horizon, but vending machines still accept coins and bills to cater to a broader audience.

So is cash on the rise in use? Tell me that I am dismissing it too quick.

The usage of cash is generally flattening out.

Definitely not on the rise in usage over digital, but cash is still a necessity for a multitude of reasons. As NFC is adopted on a broader scale by those that choose those methods of usage at the POS, the use of ATMs and cash will continue to fall, although I don’t see an “all digital” future here.

Digital Wallets, NFC cards and pay-by- phone tech is unmatched by cash transactions. It’s quick, more convenient and the younger generations were the early adopters that preferred not to be tied to the cash ecosystem.

Interesting that some foreign governments are actively promoting cashless economies to reduce corruption, improve tax collection, and enhance transparency.

And Another Viewpoint from a Cash Handling Kiosk Manufacturer, SelfPay out of Romania

dimana selfpay

Cash is big for us too, this is what our business is about, giving the clients the freedom of payment options – in Romania, we operate 11 000 kiosks for payment of 300+ services, predominantly cash (www.selfpay.com). People want to control their spending, to have privacy and choice of payment, this is what our self-service delivers.

Gambling is a huge industry in Romania, monthly we process cca 26 Mio Euro top-ups of in e-money which are in general used in the gambling and gaming industry. If fact SelfPay enables about 70-80% of the e-money transactions. Last year we have processed 250 Mio Euro in e-money transactions, this year we expect to reach 300 Mio. In our opinion self-service payments kiosks have a remarkable potential for any country.

In Europe Bitcoin and any crypto is dealt mostly on-line, as this assures compliance/KYC/AML. It is expected the MICA legislation to regulate the industry. The Markets in Crypto-Assets Regulation (MiCA) institutes uniform EU market rules for crypto-assets. The regulation covers crypto-assets that are not currently regulated by existing financial services legislation. This will allow the regulation bodies to have clear requirements towards the market players.

About Dimana

As a Director at SelfPay am contributing the company growth by creating and managing partners relationship for the International development of the company, as well as for the mobile application SelfPay Now.

Background on Europe and Self Checkout

Nice post from The Retail Optimizer in Germany

Here are the key points:

Market Growth: Over 217,000 self-checkout devices were delivered worldwide last year, an increase of 17,000 from the previous year.
Top Suppliers: NCR Voyix remains the largest supplier, though its market share has decreased. Diebold Nixdorf has overtaken Toshiba to become the second largest supplier.
Major Clients: Diebold Nixdorf has secured major clients like Aldi Süd and Rossmann, while 4POS has gained significant market share with clients like Lidl and Rewe Group.
Regional Leaders: Chinese suppliers HiStone and CCL Technology maintain a strong presence, with HiStone leading in its home market.

Europe SCO share

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